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October 01, 2009

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It sounds like the gaijin/gaikokujin situation in Japan. I don't think you can force a culture into changing their linguistic or semantic ways. If you do, you will often be met by fierce resistance (and often of the nationalistic kind).

Words contain values. Different cultures put different values on the same words. How is swearing viewed in Korea? In Japan, it is seen as crude and rarely used in daily life. However, in Australia, we seem to let the four letter words fly with little thought as we place little value on them (unless we choose to).

Given time, I think an increasing number of countries will start to favor more neutral or accurate language. Has the English language been forced to do this as it has come into contact with many other nationalities and cultures on a daily basis? Have our own liberal attitudes and politics guided us down this path?

I will always remember traveling to Shanghai from Japan with a few 'gaijin' friends. We arrived at Shanghai airport and got on a shuttle bus to our hotel. A group of Japanese travelers also boarded the bus. One Japanese gentleman snarled the word 'gaijin' with particular venom when he saw us on the bus. I still remember chuckling and thinking to myself as our Chinese bus driver pulled away from the curb, 'Mate, we are all foreigners somewhere in the world.'

I usually say "the locals", which sounds patronising but is about the best word I can find.

I was going to say exactly the same thing about the Japanese use of "gaijin". In fact, it was one of the few words of Japanese I knew before getting there as that strange use of the word is mentioned in a famous crime book whose name escapes me where a Japanese American is the chief suspect

I don't quite see the problem... I mean, if one translates the Korean (or Japanese) directly as 'foreigner', then yes. But if it is understood conceptually as 'not Korean', then it doesn't matter where you all are.

The 'gaijin' thing has never bothered me that much, although I'd rather that people use my name (which they do if they know it), or at least my nationality. But basically, yes, I'm not Japanese so fair enough (as long as they don't snarl it!)

Since I've had kids it has started to concern me a bit , though. I don't like to hear them called foreign, because they aren't. Again, not a problem with people we know but the odd stranger....

Interesting how the three examples from Japan talk a little more about the negative aspects of their use of "foreigner" (at least to some degree). In my original post, I wasn't really talking about Koreans using "foreigner" in a condescending or derogatory fashion at all - and my main point, the one that really had me surprised, was how Koreans who have actually migrated to another country would then label people in that country as 'general foreigners'- not using the word to signify the local nationality, and apparently unaware that THEY are in fact the foreigners in this new context they have moved to.

Any examples of the Japanese doing the same - for example migrating to Canada, then getting together and referring to all the Canadians around them (in Canada) as foreigners?

"Any examples of the Japanese doing the same - for example migrating to Canada, then getting together and referring to all the Canadians around them (in Canada) as foreigners?"

That's exactly the situation in the book I was talking about- Snow Falling on Cedars??

tweeted this... hope you don't mind

As a total outsider, reading this it seems to me that that terms 'waeguk-saram' and 'waegukin' might have been used factually (rather than normatively?) to describe something like 'different'?
So I'd like to know if there might actually be some potentially postive aspects to being 'a foreigner' - someone with an outsider's frame who might see new angles on things perhaps? And of course some foreigners' ideas will be tosh, but might some be worthy of attention, if only for oddity value?

I think the fact that it refers to non-Korean first and foreigner second it is a problem.

Yes, I experienced this once myself. I was at a Japanese izakaya in New York where most of the customers were Japanese and I was with a Japanese friend. I remember she said "there's a lot of foreigners here" when more non-Japanese customers came in and I was pretty surprised and amused at the time.

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